18 Comments »

  Anne wrote @ October 13, 2007 at 7:21 am

What you wrote is true. Permanent residents with independent financial means - ie: 24,000 euros in a Greek bank account! I just found this out in July while renewing my residence permit…and they are a bit stricter re: health insurance, wanting proof of payment, and proof of coverage in Greece.

You have a great website! I check it often, please keep up the good work!

  graffic wrote @ October 13, 2007 at 8:45 pm

O.M.G.!

I guess the guide of how to build your own figther plane has less steps. Why are things “here” (Greece) so complicated?

It’s supposed that the government has to serve the people, not the opposite. Nowadays you adapt to what the government wants from you. It seems that you have to ask for a favour, when in fact they take the money from your taxes and they should be grateful.

I have to try to get again the ***** IKA number hehe

  Helada.org wrote @ October 21, 2007 at 1:31 pm

Very useful site! I hadn’t heard of it till a friend tipped me off today, but I’ll spread the word. The paperwork required for the economically independent residence permit is highly subjective. In my case, it took months of waiting followed by a couple of calls by a friendly politician.

  Kat wrote @ October 21, 2007 at 3:59 pm

A - Thanks for adding your comment. What you said it being “stricter” is true with regards to depositing the money, however in the past 10 years, they have always asked for proof of insurance coverage, et al. I appreciate your readership!

G - You’re lucky you’re an EU citizen. I waste a lot of my life doing bureaucracy, and it’s a neverending cycle because by the time I get my permit (I wait a long time), it’s time to start renewing it again.

B - Thank you! I’ve known about your site for quite awhile. I wrote this article according to the sources I listed above. Any deviations are covered under my “Warning and Disclaimer” page. It’s good you shared your experience. Others had less trouble or more. It’s Greece, after all.

  Lynn wrote @ November 9, 2007 at 12:05 pm

An American friend of mine has just fallen foul of his attempt to obtain this visa. He is just retired (pension of a schoolteacher) and came to Greece in June 2007 on a Tourist visa. He hoped to be able to apply for a Residence permit after his arrival here. But he was told he needed a special visa for retirees, available only abroad. After his 3 months expired he travelled on holiday to London. At Spata (Athens) airport he was told re-entry would be impossible. In London he enquired at the US Embassy for help. They advised him to return home to the States and then apply for the special visa from the Greek Consulate. This he did. He had help from Greek-speaking friends when he applied for the proper visa. However, to no avail. Almost 2 months later his visa application was refused (insufficient funds) and he is now told that no appeal is possible. What to do next? Any ideas?

  Kat wrote @ November 12, 2007 at 7:10 am

There is a transparency issue in Greece, which means new laws and directives can be implemented or changed at any time without properly spreading the word to the public, public sector offices and consulates.

Firstly, he was denied re-entry to Greece because of the Schengen rule that says Americans (and other non-EU citizens part of the visa-waiver program) can only stay a maximum of 90 days within a 180-day period. Going to the UK or a non-Schengen country, then coming back changes nothing if he’s already stayed 90 days. Many countries do not enforce this rule, but Greece is one that does.

Secondly, with regards to “insufficient funds” being the reason for denial, an appeal is not possible if he doesn’t have at least 2,000 euros (now approximately 3,000 USD with the current exchange rate) income per month as proof of financial support. This is a strict uncompromising requirement. If he has evidence to contradict that, one might get in contact with the Greek Consulate General in Washington DC and lodge a complaint. Otherwise, I’m afraid there are no other options I’m aware of.

The U.S. Embassy is a diplomatic mission that offers services to citizens and non-citizens pertaining to the homeland, not the host country where it is a guest. Therefore, it does not intervene on issues pertaining to Greek laws and regulations, which is the reason they cannot help with Greek visas, residence/work permits for Greece or when an American citizen breaks the law.

I’m sorry I don’t have any other options to offer your friend.

  Lynn wrote @ November 14, 2007 at 1:11 pm

Thank you very much for your reply. I am forwarding this information to the person concerned and hope it will be helpful to him. Keep up your good work on a brilliant site.

  deli wrote @ March 19, 2008 at 9:58 am

Hi, Kat. I posted an inquiry on Just Landed (Greece) addressed to you before I found your website. This site is filled with wonderful information. It answered most of my questions, so if you happen to check the forum on Just Landed, please disregard it.

To capsulize my posting on Just Landed: I just recently retired from the US military and decided to retire in Greece. I lived and was stationed in Greece for almost 4 years (Jan 2002 - Mar 2006). A week after my official retirement (Dec 6, 2007), I flew to Greece as a tourist without a Schengen visa because the Greek Embassy staffs (in DC and in LA) told me I didnt need one as an American, even after telling them my intention on retiring in Greece.

1) I went to Alpha Bank to open an account but I was told I couldnt open a bank account without AFM. Is it just Alpha Bank that requires that? You mentioned AFM is not required to open an account.

2) The Greek Embassy staff here in the US never mentioned SPECIAL ENTRY VISA, they did however mentioned TYPE D visa.

Well, after my 90 days in Greece, I flew back to the US and am going to the Greek Consulate in LA next week. Am worried that if I asked for SPECIAL ENTRY VISA that nobody would know what I was talking about. Is there a GREEK NAME or TERM for that?

On a good note, the guy who was working at the Peristeri Office in Athens was very helpful and was more than willing and happy to help an American (he said he never had an American applicant ever before, and made me cut the line and invited to his office). He even filled out the application form, but when he called the Ministry for guidance, the Ministry of Internal Affairs (?) asked about the visa from the Greek Embassy in the US. That’s when I hit a brick wall.

3). My military pension is roughly (at current euro rate) 1200 euros. Could the difference of 800 euros be covered by my bank savings, mutual funds/TSP accounts?

Thank you very much in advance, and again job well done on your site.

  stevenura wrote @ March 19, 2008 at 11:47 am

pls tell the periferias to stop frustrating people who paid a lot of money and at the end they don’t get the permit

Note from Kat: Hi S, this is a known problem. Municipality employees are supposed to be well-informed of current laws and then tell someone up front if they don’t have the proper qualifications to get a permit. However, many employees are ignorant or knowingly accept documents/applications/money from someone they know will be refused, so Greece can keep their money; the last figure I heard was 300.000 people waiting for permits that might never come. I provide information for everyone so they can educate themselves and understand if they truly qualify for a permit BEFORE going to authorities who might cheat them.

From the years I did not get my permit — either because they lost my file or issued my permit only after it was expired — I’ve only managed to get a refund one time, and this is because I had a Greek friend complain/yell/swear a lot at the Mayor’s office. The mayor bought us drinks to stop my friend from yelling, then he made a call to both the eforia and dimos office to let them know to stop hassling us and refund the money. Before that, the eforia said to go to the dimos office, and they said to go to the Mayor, and they said to go to the eforia, and they said…well, you get the idea.

  Kat wrote @ March 19, 2008 at 11:23 pm

Hi Deli, nice to see you here and thank you for your kind words. I’m glad you found me because I unfortunately do not have time to check message boards that often. For me, it makes more sense to invest time in my own site instead of giving away information that helps another site.

1) Needing an AFM to open a bank account - The banks at which I have accounts did not ask me for an AFM or a residence permit; all they asked for is my passport. As I do not have an account at Alpha, I cannot say if this is a country-wide policy or if this is specific to the branch or the person helping you. As you know, results vary a lot here.

2) Special entry visa - I’m told that the proper visa is a Greek national visa type ‘D,’ which denotes the intention to immigrate. The article has been updated accordingly.

3) 2,000 euros per/mo — I’ve heard of two situations. One is you are asked to deposit 24,000 euros up front in a Greek bank account for the whole year. The other is that you must show proof of 2,000/mo income; it doesn’t matter how that’s done — savings, pension, alimony, profits from a company abroad, etc.

Cheers!

  deli wrote @ March 19, 2008 at 11:52 pm

Euxarhsto para poly, Kat.

Take your time and finish your pending projects. I fully understand how busy you are. I’ll be in here in Los Angeles for a while and I’ll make sure I’ll have all my ducks in a row before going back to the Greek Consulate (and, maybe, educate the Embassy personnel for the things they “should” know…dont worry I’ll give attribution where its due ). I am just glad that I found your website and had access to the information/guidance you have on it. You have no idea how many questions I had/have that your site answered. Its a huge welcome relief amidst the uncertainties and flaws of the Greek immigration laws. ..and did you mention patience? Ela re..I lived in and survived Greece for 4 years (so what does that tell you?) It’s funny because in Larissa where I was stationed, the locals called me the most greekified American. Yes..i drove and cursed like one!

Anyway, again thank you very much.

deli

p.s. I read somewhere that you are leaving Greece, contemplating on leaving Greece, or you’re definitely leaving Greece. If you are, KRIMA…poly krima. But if you are going back to Cali and happen to be in or around the LA or San Fernando Valley counties and I’m still here, let me know… I — on behalf of the hundreds, if not thousands, of people you’ve helped and are still helping — owe you a shot of ouzo or tsipouro (or maybe a bottle). Na prosexeis. Filakia!!!

  MAJOR Migos US ARMY wrote @ April 7, 2008 at 9:59 pm

Wow, after reading all the articles above I will start doing some research myself.

  Kat wrote @ April 14, 2008 at 1:39 pm

Deli - The article has been updated accordingly with the information you seek, and this comes from the municipality and the Greek Consulate in DC. You are not obligated to quote my article as I do not represent the Greek government, nor am I an official source. All I do is collect official information and independently verify everything for my readers’ convenience without misleading you with heresay and rumors.

I e-mailed you today some inside information and resources for U.S. military in Greece. You owe me nothing and look forward to speaking with you more in the future.

Major M - All of the research is already done above, however you are free to conduct your own should you doubt it. No problem at all.

  Dee wrote @ May 1, 2008 at 9:11 pm

Boy, I hope you can help me!!

My husband & I came to a small island in Greece last August after selling everything we had back in the states.

Before leaving, I personally visited and phoned the Greek Consulate in my area. I explained we were planing to relocate in Greece. We have proof of self support and health insurance and passports.
We intended to go to Greece to be with our grandson. we were told that we had a “good enough” reason for staying. We were under the impression once we arrived in Greece and found ourselves a place within the 90 days. We could then apply at the local police station for residency/extended stay permit.

We bought one way tickets and off we went. Going through customs when asked how long we planned to stay we stated we hoped for good. No further questions were asked and we went on our way.
Once we arrived, found an apartment and spent time with our grandson. It didn’t take long for us to decide this is where we want to stay.

As our 90 day visitation time was getting close, we went to the local police station as instructed to apply for an extended stay. We were told that the police station no longer handles that process and told us to go to the town hall. That’s when the nightmare began.

The man there was not pleasant and with our Greek speaking daughter asked why should we be allowed to stay? We need proof of being self supportive. What would happen if he was to go to America? Would they just let him stay? With no income?….

Bite my tongue, but wanted to say, Yes we would. We’d pay your rent, feed your family, school your children and provide free medical care, it’s called welfare!

However, I didn’t. We explained the situation and he changed his attitude a bit. However, then wanted to know were did we get the forms we had filled out? (from the Greek Consulate’s office in the states) He felt they were not the proper forms. He told us he would have to get the proper forms from Athens. We should return the following day to pck them up.

The following day, he was not in. Then the weekend. This went on for a couple of weeks. Then finally, he told us he was not able to get the proper forms for us. Either way, we did not have a Visa
to begin with, so we could not stay in Greece. Needless to say we were speechless.

We contacted the American Embassy in Athens only to be told it’s true, we should have gotten our Visas FIRST.

In the meantime, we were witnesses to a serious crime. Where the detectives asked if we could stay for a couple -3 months in case we were needed to testify. We naturally agreed do to the degree of the crime. Since then, we have not heard back from the authorities about the case.

I have attempted to contact more information from the American and Greek Consulates, the U.S. Citizens Traveling Abroad at the governments web site, various governmental departments at all levels. Even requested information as to why I was so misinformed at the same Greek Consulate’s office where I first inquired before leaving the U.S. And, recently mailed a letter to both Embassies in two U.S. cities ( one being Washington D.C…. I have not received a single word from any resources I’ve tried.
Including website legal advice forums!

I’m about to go insane.

Everyone on this island tell us not to worry, no one cares as long as we stay out of trouble, we’ll be fine. I am not comfortable with being an illegal alien!

I have discovered that apparently Greece is in the process of re-organizing their immigration/alien system. In the meantime it seems no one knows or even cares were we need to go or who it is we need to see.

Under the circumstances, we feel we should be allowed to be reconsidered and allowed to at least apply for a residency permit.

We fear after all this time and the strong re-bonding we’ve experienced with our grand son. What effect would all this have on him? What is he to think of the Greek government sending us away?
We also wonder what happens when we decide to return to the states to visit and /or attend weddings etc.?

What resource would you recommend? Is there any hope for us?

I would appreciate any and all possible suggestions you my lend.

With extreme appreciation,
Dee

  deli wrote @ May 3, 2008 at 12:54 am

Thanks, Kat. I did receive your email and saw the update on the “special entry visa”. WIsh me luck, I am scheduled to see one of the consulate staff in LA on Wed (May 7). Again, thanks a bunch!!!

Ms. Dee: I feel your pain. I experienced, first hand, the same ignorance and incompetence you went through with the Greek Embassy/Consulates staff here in the US prior to flying to Greece in December. Essentially, they all told me: “No visa needed, just fly to Greece and apply when you get there. It would be stupid of the Greek government to not approve you since you won’t be sponging off from them or stealing somebody else’s job.” So, I flew to Greece and when I applied for the permit, the first thing they asked was the Visa! My Greek friends told me the same thing your friends told you, to not worry and just stay as long as I want as long as I stay out of trouble. I don’t think so! Suffice to say, I left and flew back to the US. I’m not giving up though, I’ll let you know what happens with my meeting with the consulate staff. Good luck and take care.

  Kat wrote @ May 3, 2008 at 10:57 am

Hi Dee - The information I’m going to give you comes from written documentation from the municipality and my own experience with the type of residence permit you are trying to get. There are exceptions (this is Greece, after all), but I like to give it straight, and then if someone enjoys leniency, so be it.

1) Non-EU citizens, regardless of nationality or family connection to a Greek/EU citizen, have always needed a residence permit to stay beyond the validity of their visa. How do I know that? That is the case in all EU countries. It’s the law. The first time I came here 11 years ago, I knew I needed a permit (I never consulted the Consulate, I went direct to authorities), but my boss didn’t give me the contract I needed to file on time, so I was fined for overstaying my visa when I left. You also will be fined when/if you leave Greece because you are beyond the 90 days.

2) What the Consulate General told you about getting a visa extension is false. A visa extension is for temporary visitors and granted under special extenuating circumstances. Further, the extension (if granted) only lasts a maximum of 6 months (extremely rare case); most extensions last only 3 months. If you told them that you’d intended to live here permanently, they should have immediately directed you to a type ‘D’ visa, which is a visa that specifically denotes the intention to immigrate, or at least told you that you needed a permit.

3) The type D visa has not always existed, but the Consulate is lying about reorganizing their immigration/alien system. The major overhaul in immigration occurred in December 2005, with only minor amendments in December 2007, so it’s more likely that they’re taking the typical 2-3 years to get up to speed. I first heard of this visa being required for this particular permit in March 2007, so it took more than a year for municipalities in Greece to be informed and it sounds like some Consulate/Embassies are still not informed.

4) It used to be that you could come here without the type D visa and apply for a residence permit based on independent means when you got here. That’s how I got mine 10 years ago. BUT, it has always been true that you need to show proof of insurance coverage, proof of income, proof of residence in Greece (lease, mortgage, etc.). Back then, they did not ask me to deposit the whole 24,000 euros into a bank account like they do now, but they asked to see a bank account of a few thousand dollars with photocopies of my passbook certified by police, along with check stubs from income I received from outside Greece. Therefore, this is not a new requirement. It has always been so.

5) In smaller towns, the police handle permits and visa extensions. In larger towns, the ‘dimos’ or town hall handles permits for Greece, and the police station handles visa extensions.

6) It is best to not rely on Greek and EU citizens for information and advice about permits and visas. Why? Although I knew a few good people who are really excellent sources, the majority dispense information based on heresay and don’t have first-hand experience or knowledge about actually doing the paperwork and aren’t familiar with laws because they don’t pertain to them. This is also why the most popular English-language weekly is often wrong — I know this because I used to rely on them for information, and it’s been wrong for the past 10 years; something is always missing, and it’s because they’re writers are Greek and have no real first-hand experience with bureaucracy. People have a hard time saying, “I don’t know” here, so they make up an answer or say “don’t worry.” That’s never been good enough for me, and it shouldn’t be good enough for you either. I started this Web site in an attempt to help people avoid these things.

7) The “don’t worry” advice comes from yesteryears of non-enforcement of the law and people flouting or skirting it somehow. But it doesn’t mean laws don’t exist and don’t apply.

8 ) Unless you have an inside connection in Greece who can fix this for you (politician, connected lawyer, employee at the Foreign Ministry), there is no point contacting the Consulate or Embassy or anyone outside Greece because the damage is done and cannot be fixed because your visa is now expired, and you are in an illegal status. That’s why no one is responding to you. Well, that, and the fact no one wants to take responsibility for their incompetence; they figure it’s your problem now.

9) I’m surprised the American Embassy in Athens is now up to speed on permits and visas because they’ve been useless to me since the first day I arrived. Just last year, I heard they were turning people away and redirecting them to municipalities and Greek Embassies in the USA. Either they’ve done some research or been reading this site

10) If a Greek wanted to immigrate to the USA, he also would need to show that he or someone in the USA has funds to sponsor and support him. i.e. If my Greek fiance and I wished to go to the USA, I have to go ahead of him, establish a domicile, get a stable job, sign a 10-year binding agreement to support him unconditionally (even in divorce), and only then would he be allowed to come over and get a permit. The minimum funds required by the USA is half what Greece demands, but I wanted to illustrate that the USA would not take care of him, just as GR would not take care of us. The only legal way he’d be able to get around the immigration process to the USA is to have dual citizenship with the USA, just as you having dual citizenship with Greece or another EU country would be the only way for you to get around the permit. A Greek could come over on a tourist visa and overstay, but being in an illegal resident status would not entitle him to welfare benefits.

The way I see it is you have two choices (that is, if you don’t have a politician, connected lawyer or foreign ministry employee to help you):
a) Keep staying here without a permit and stay under the radar. This is easy to do if you live on an island and won’t be engaging in anything legal (or illegal), such as getting an AFM (tax number), buying a car/home, taking part-time work, etc. However, the drawback is you will you be fined 600-1300 euros for overstaying your visa when you leave Greece IF border control decides to punish you (they may not); as long as you pay the fine, you will not be blacklisted and can come back to Greece.

b) In order to get the permit done the right way, you must leave Greece, go to the Greek Consulate/Embassy in the USA and apply for the type D visa, give them all the documents they require (listed above), re-enter Greece with the visa and apply for the permit, which must be renewed every year. You must also stay away from the Schengen zone (of which Greece is a part) for a minimum of 180 days because non-EU citizens are only allowed to stay a maximum of 90 days in any 180-day period.

That’s not what you wanted to hear, but these are your only two options should you not have connections to help you. Even if the Consulate were forced to admit their mistake, I don’t see a way to force them to call authorities in Greece and have your permit issued because they’d have to call local authorities in your area, then the Perifeira, then the Foreign Ministry. That’s an awful lot of force at different levels.

  Alan wrote @ May 7, 2008 at 11:18 pm

Kat, just discovered your site today and have to tell you how great it is. I want to share a little on this issue; my wife and I moved here three years ago from California and have had very little trouble renewing our permit the first two times. This past September we went through the process again as before, however, here it is 8 months later and we’re bogged down in the typical Greek bureaucracy, lost paperwork, holidays, vacations, and other assorted delays. We have never in three years been asked to deposit funds in a Greek bank and our copies of U.S. bank accounts, stocks, etc. have always sufficed for previous renewals. This time our financial records are not being accepted because they come off the dreaded and mysterious internet. They must be “certified” originals AND translated. We had our bank and stock companies send us ‘originals’ but we’re being told they “don’t look like originals” and “they’re not stamped as being official”. We’ve decided we need to find a lawyer who might be able to intercede for us so we can get this finished before it’s time to renew again this coming September.

Thanks for a great site. I wish all my fellow American friends good luck with their problems.

  Deli wrote @ May 9, 2008 at 4:28 am

Hi, all.
As I promised on my last post, I would like to share what happened at the Greek Consulate yesterday (May 7) on my first attempt to get a special entry visa. The lady who helped me was very nice and helpful. I told her what my intentions were and what I went through, and she did acknowledge the fact that greeks would rather give bogus info than saying “Sorry, I don’t know the answer or don’t have the information you needed”. How true!!!

Anyway, she asked 7 things from me.
1) My US passport,
2) 2 passport photos,
3) Bank Statements showing I would have at least 2000 euros a month,
4) Statement for continuous medical/health coverage,
5) Filled out Schengen Visa Application for Type D visa,
6) FBI Clearance, and
7) $US 56.00 processing fee.
I gave her more than what she actually asked. I also showed her my statements from my TSP and Fidelity accounts, and Statmenet of Service and Income from the Department of the Navy, translated to greek by the Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Athens. However, I wasn’t able to file my application because most of my documents were dated 2007. I have to get a new statement from TRICARE for my medical coverage even if the 2007 statement clearly stated I have “continuous medical coverage as a retired US military member effective 1 December 2007′, and a 2008 FBI clearance. I thought, well..it’s OK. I figured she asking me 2008 clearances and statements were valid. So, I mailed all the necessary requests and fingerprint card to FBI and TRICARE today, which would normally take at least 4 weeks for the results/response (which means, my plan on flying back to Greece as early as June 6 is temporarily shelved). The only thing was that she didn’t really buy and consider my TSP and mutual funds statements. Although I have enough savings in my bank account plus my retirement pay to cover the minimum 2000 euros a month requirement, she insinuated that it would be better if I withdrew some of my TSP and convert some of my mutual funds/stock balances, and deposit them in my bank accounts and present them the next time I saw her. I thought and rationalized, maybe they require a more easily accessible cash on hand. She signed my application noting that she already interviewed me and told me to come back and see her with the new 2008 FBI clearance and TRICARE statements. The whole interview took no more than an hour, and though I wasn’t able to put my request in, at least there’s some kind of progress here as opposed to the kind of treatment and information I got in 2006/2007 from the Greek Embassy in DC and consulates in Los Angeles and San Francisco. I am hoping I would get the same results and treatment when I return in a month and the lady consulate staff would still be working there.

To Alan: I had the same experience with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Translation Services) in February 2008. I brought some documents for translation and they didn’t accept my internet account statements because they were not the originals or didn’t seem to look like original copies. I’m just wondering, where did you guys renew your first and second permits?

To Kat: You are in my prayers. I read your email today. I have nothing but high mega praises for you, not only for the work you’ve done and doing on this site and the hundreds of people you’ve helped and are still helping, but also for what you’ve been and going through as an American living and surviving in Greece. Thank you very very much.

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